Affirm the testimony you're about to complete the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> Got it. >> It's 10:04 a.m. April 17, 2025. We're here for the deposition of Chief Parish, uh the 30B6 representative for the city of Livingston. What is your title and role with the city of Livingston? >> I'm the chief of police. >> How long have you been the uh chief of police >> since um interim? since February March 2nd, 2020. I was sworn in as full chief. >> Okay. And then uh you mentioned you were interning before that >> for a month. >> Okay. And then what were you doing before that? >> I was second in charge. I was lieutenant. And I was lieutenant from about uh 2008 until that time I became chief. >> Okay. So, how long have you been with uh the city of Livingston? >> Since February of 92. >> Okay. Who do you re who do you report to within the city's uh organizational structure? >> My boss is the city manager. >> Okay. Uh what written delegation of authority have you received from the city manager? >> Um I'm I'm not sure exactly what you want to know. Um, as far as any written delegation, I mean, just in our our our uh command structure, that's just he is just my boss. He hires and fires. He doesn't necessarily dictate and stop me if I'm going off. He doesn't dictate necessarily what the individual departments do. >> Okay. So, for like internal policing policy, that's your responsibility. >> Well, I'm not a policy maker. It does have to go on up to council. Council is the only policy maker for the city. >> Okay. And I'm not talking policy maker, okay? I'm talking for internal the internal functions of the police department. >> Yes, it's me. Yes, I do that. >> And so, uh, who hires and fires police officers? >> I do. >> Okay. So, you don't you don't have anytime you want to hire or fire somebody, uh, you don't have to go to the city manager for that. >> I don't have to, but I do. >> Okay. But you but you have the final say in that regard. >> Yes sir. >> Okay. [snorts] >> Uh there is a city interrogatory response which you uh I believe you identified yourself as someone who uh uh assists in providing those answers. Do you recall that answering interrogatories? >> Yes sir. >> Okay. Uh one of the interrogatories stated that uh you have authority of a department head. Do you recall that? >> Yes. >> Okay. What what do you understand uh your specific powers are for that? >> As the chief of police over the department. >> Yes. >> Um as you said earlier, the hiring, the firing, I do the general management, administrative duties of the police department. >> Okay. And uh I know you say, you know, especially with like uh hiring and firing, for example, you you give a courtesy uh notification to the city manager, but are there specific decisions uh that you make with respect to the police department that has to go to the city manager? >> Uh well, anything to do with like policy or anything like that. And yes, it it is a courtesy type thing, but just remember the city manager can override me at any time and uh change whether I hired or fired somebody. >> Okay. So, has the city manager ever overruled any of your decisions regarding police operations? >> Um, none that I No. >> Okay. What's the process that exists for the city manager [clears throat] to uh to review your decisions related to police operations? >> The process is is basically he depends on me to just brief him on what's occurring. >> Okay. So there's no like formal process. It's like an email. >> Yeah. Yes. Or most of the time, you know, it's a small city, so most time it's oneonone, just me and him. Now if it's a formal thing such as you know general orders policies stuff like that then yes he has to approve those. >> Okay. What policies have you personally established for the living simple department since becoming the chief? >> Uh there's actually numerous policies. We we subscribe to a company called Lexipole who manages our policies. And so what happens is the Lexi pole will come out with the latest policies to meet accreditation for the state of Texas and then we will move those on up the chain to city attorney, city management. Then it goes to council and council does the final approvement. >> Okay. Do you have authority to uh create, modify or approve those policies >> to some extent? Yes. But um obviously we can modify them, but you don't because they're written up by attorneys and you do not want to do that short of doing Livingston, city of Livingston or something like that. >> Okay. Uh how about like disciplinary functions? Who has authority to discipline police officers? >> I do. >> Okay. You do you have to get city manager or city council approval to discipline? >> Not council, but again, I do talk to my city manager. >> Okay. But that's not required. You just do it. >> I can do it. Yes. >> And HR. I'm sorry. I talked to our HR as well. >> Uh city HR. Is there a specific HR in the department? >> No, city. >> Okay. Have you ever issued like general orders to your department? >> Yes, I have. >> Okay. What's that? Like >> a a general order is is just a uh a temporary directive of this is what we're going to do until it becomes a final policy. >> Okay. And so you have sole discretion to issue general orders to your police department. [snorts] >> Yes. Uh yes and no. I'm the one that issues the general orders, but such as for instance like beards. Okay. We went to beards here a while back. So that's obviously something I'm going to talk over with the city manager before I implement that general order and he will say yes or no to go ahead with that. >> Okay. And again, that's just uh you are choosing to involve the city manager in discussions like that. >> Well, yes. >> Okay. When uh when officers need guidance on how to handle specific situations such as interactions with First Amendment auditors, who determines what guidance is provided? Well, it would be uh myself, the administrative staff could be my lieutenant or the sergeants over that shift. >> Okay. Who makes the uh final decision to pursue Well, let me back up. Who made uh the final decision to pursue charges against plaintiffs in this case? >> The district attorney. >> Okay. Um the district attorney made the decision to prosecute if the charges were presented to to him. Right. >> The district attorney directed us to file these charges and present them to his office. >> Okay. And then you directed uh your officers to uh to go get the arrest warrants. Well, the way that works is myself and the lieutenant were in the meeting with the district attorney. The district attorney advised us what to file and present to his office. When we get back to the police department, the lieutenant is in charge of detectives and then so I would just entrust the lieutenant to to make that call of directing the detectives of what to do. >> Okay. So, did you have any discretion to pursue charges against the plaintiffs in this case? like u going against the district attorney. >> Well, you know what discretion is, right? >> Yes. But um I guess technically I could go against the Yes. >> Okay. So, you did have discretion in in this case with the plaintiffs whether to actually bring charges forward to the district attorney? >> Yes. >> Okay. U [clears throat] did you have to involve the city manager in that process at all? No. Um, no. >> Okay. Um, this meeting, uh, who called the meeting with the district attorney? >> I called and requested a meeting with the district attorney. >> Okay. Uh, and who was all present at this meeting? >> It was, um, the district attorney, Lee Han, uh, his first assistant, which was Tammy Pierce. Um, myself, my lieutenant, Marty Drake. um chief deputy with the Poke County Sheriff's Office and I can't remember if it was DPS sergeant or one of his there was DPS there. >> Okay. How did the uh chief of police from the city of Corgan learn about the arrest warrants in this case? >> Um I don't remember. >> Okay. I don't >> Do you recall him calling you? >> I do remember talking to him. Yes. >> And talk about the $100,000 bonds. I may have. I don't know. >> Okay. So, you don't know how he would have how he [clears throat] would have learned about it? >> No. >> Or why he would have called you? >> I know why he would call because we contact each other. It's a small rural county. We all the chiefs and the sheriff, we meet on a regular basis. >> Okay. Do you all develop uh like strategies on how to handle certain situations? um like um >> like you and the other police chiefs for example specific to like first amendment auditors. >> Well, no. No. Uh but if you're talking about strategies like I have a meeting coming up Monday where I'm meeting with DPS and the sheriff as far as any emergency evacuation. Yes, we do. So, it's hard to answer your question. Yes and no. >> [snorts] >> I'm gonna play real quick. um kind of jumping around, but uh I think we're in a good spot for this. I'm gonna play real quick uh audio defendants uh 367 and I just want you to identify for me um it's a recorded phone call. Uh, do you normally record your phone calls >> again? No, not on a regular basis because mainly I talk on my cell phone. >> Okay. But when it's your office phone, they're recording. >> Yes. >> Okay. Okay. Um, I'm g just play from the beginning. All right. >> Daryl Gibson. >> Hey, Daryl. How are you? >> Okay. Uh, did that sound like Daryl Gibson's voice? >> That's his voice. >> Okay. And for the record, I'm stopping at literally I think uh two seconds. And then uh and then that was you respawning as well. >> Yes, it was. >> Okay. Let me continue the call. >> Pretty good. probably better than y'all are. >> Oh, yeah. They coming at us, but that's all right. I had several meetings expecting it. So, >> yeah. >> But I'm not going I'm not going to uh I'm not there's a line and I'm not going to tolerate my officers being threatened and and put in those positions where, you know, I've got a responsibility to protect not just the officers but the public as well. And they crossed the line by far. Okay, I'm stopping at 32 seconds. Um, so you uh you made the decision, right, yourself that uh the plaintiffs had crossed the line? >> That was Yes. >> Okay. Uh you didn't have to go to the city manager or city council to make that determination? >> No. >> Okay. Uh and what did you uh review to make the determination that plants had crossed the line? It was the actual review was their reports, their offense reports and what the lieutenant was briefing me on uh that Monday. >> Okay. So, the incident occurred incidents occurred February 4th, 2022, which was a Friday. >> Yes, sir. >> And then you were briefed on Monday morning. >> Yes. >> Okay. [snorts] And uh you were briefed by the lieutenant? >> Yes. >> Okay. Lieutenant Drake, >> I'm sorry. Yes. Lieutenant Drake. >> I'm just making sure if there's any other No. >> Okay. And uh had you personally reviewed yourself uh the incident reports? >> Yes, I did. >> Okay. Did you review the body warning camera? >> No, I did not. >> Okay. Did you speak with any of the officers that actually were present at the any of the incidents? >> I didn't. No. >> Okay. And then also that Monday morning, uh you had called the meeting with the district attorney. >> Yes, I did. >> Okay. And then when you got back from the meeting, the direction was uh to your officers through your lieutenant, I guess, to uh to initiate the charges. >> Yes. >> Okay. Did you review any of the uh arrest warrant affidavits prior to them being submitted to the judge? >> No, sir. >> Okay. Do you have a process or policy in place uh for there to be a review of any arrest warrant affidavit? >> We we do. The lieutenant does spot check cases. We don't review every case, but a lieutenant, my patrol lieutenant or C will uh like I say, spot check, just randomly pick out cases. >> Do you know if that happened here? >> No, sir, I don't. >> Okay. >> So, when uh do you know when you had this call with uh Daryl Gibson? I would think I think it's I don't exactly recall. I think it's several days later. >> Okay. >> And I'm getting that from the contents cuz uh the other auditors or cop watchers were blowing our phones up. >> Okay. And so, uh did you have other discussions with Daryl Gibson about the plaintiffs? >> I don't um not that I remember. No. And so you made the determination uh that plaintiffs had crossed some kind of line uh based on your review of the incident reports and what you were briefed from uh your lieutenant. >> Yes. >> Okay. Anything else? >> No, sir. >> Okay. I'm going to re uh resume playing at 32 seconds. >> Well, that's that's me. I I I I said this morning if we would all hammer them every time they suck their head up off out of the ground. >> Okay. >> They'd go away cuz they're not going to go away. And I had hell with him Saturday, >> right? I saw something about that. One of your preacher or something like that or >> Yeah. How made it >> Yeah. >> Um I don't know who you got working on this, but I've identified a guy with gridlocks. >> Who Who is that? I um I we don't have warrants on him, but >> I'm I'm stopping at a minute and 7 seconds. So, it sounds like you are uh talking to uh Chief Gibson uh city of Corgan Police Chief about uh some kind of uh I guess approach for handling uh First Amendment auditors. >> Objection form. >> Uh no, actually I was trying to get it uh that individual identified is what I'm hearing there. Um he said uh now he did make the statement that he if you keep hammering them but that's not that's not our position unless they go over the line. >> Okay. And later in that call we can play it if you need to refresh your memory but maybe you recall later in that call there was a discussion about Brandon White holding a sign uh in the city of Corgan. Do you recall that? and and the chief uh Chief Gibson was representing that there were school kids present. >> I do I don't remember the exact words, but I do remember something along that lines. Yes. I can't remember if it was actually Daryl that told me in that conversation. >> Okay. So, did you had do you know if you had prior discussions uh with uh other police chiefs uh prior to February 4th, 2022 concerning Brandon White or any other pliff? >> No, I don't remember. I I may just in passing I can't say completely. Uh but I don't specifically remember any specific conversations. >> Okay. Okay. When you talked to the um when you talked to the district attorney, was uh was there any discussion about uh requesting a high bond amount? >> No. >> Okay. So, did you know that the judge uh was going to impose a $100,000 bond amount? >> Objection for >> No, sir. I did not. Okay. Do do you uh require your I well so I understand TCL has minimum training requirements for police officers right? >> Yes. >> Okay. Do you require any other uh police training specific for your officers? >> Yes, there would be um other qualifications that they need to do such as like with tasers. Uh that's not necessarily a TCO, but we do it uh uses of force certain things uh that we do mandate. >> Okay. Is that something uh you can uh decide on your own or does that have to go through city council? I I can decide. >> Okay. You uh you issued a uh press release concerning this case? Do you recall that? >> Yes, sir, I do. >> Okay. Uh do you normally issue press releases? >> Not normally. >> Okay. Do you have uh who approves press releases issued by the police department? >> I approve them. Uh they come to me finally, sometimes the lieutenant if I'm out of pocket, but most of them come to me. >> Okay. Do you have to go to the city manager or city council before releasing press releases? >> No, sir. >> Okay. [snorts] I'm going to show you what was previously marked as um exhibit three. Take a look at that. It's uh represent it's uh your press release. >> Yes, [snorts] sir. >> Who authorized uh the press release uh at exhibit 3? >> It would have been me. >> Okay. Did you draft it? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Did anyone help you draft it? >> It would possibly my lieutenant, but that would have been the only one. I I don't remember if it would have been my lieutenant uh more than likely would have assisted. >> Okay. Did you speak to any of the officers who were actually present at the incidents uh before drafting uh that press release? >> I don't remember. I see this uh was done on February 11th, so I know it's several days later. again. I may have talked to him. I can't specifically remember. >> Okay. So, uh if I understand correctly, the press release, uh it appears that your contention was that the plaintiffs were uh staging these events. >> Yes, I I believe that. >> Okay. So, um they were staging them. Uh that's not uh they weren't threatening their lives, right? >> Uh that's I disagree. Um >> okay. And that's based on your review of the incident report and speaking with your lieutenant? >> Yes. Over both incidents. >> Okay. Are you familiar with um [snorts] if there's a um if there's a complaint uh against a police officer Uh, who handles that complaint? >> Depends on the type of complaint. If it's a kind of an informal complaint, many times the sergeant over that shift will handle it. If it's more of a formal complaint, which means in writing against the officer, then almost always it goes straight to the lieutenant. >> Okay. And then who makes a final determination whether the complaint is substantiated or not? the lieutenant will make a determination and then he offers them a opportunity to appeal to me. >> Okay. And uh are these complaints uh tracked or logged or anything? >> They uh they go into the officer's personnel file. >> Okay. And I guess is there some kind of like uh like report or complaint log or anything that then is sent up to the city manager and or city council? >> No. >> Okay. So, it's all handled internally. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Well, if there's a complaint against like your lieutenant, what happens with that? >> Then it comes to me and it obviously it depends on the type of complaint. Um, if it's if you're alleging a criminal complaint against the lieutenant, obviously we contact the Texas Rangers and the district attorney. If you're just talking a violation of policy, it'll come to me. >> Okay. And then obviously if there's a complaint against you, uh, I guess that would go to city manager. >> The city manager would more than likely address it. Yes. >> Okay. And would that I guess that complaint that complaint would not stay internally as far as you know. No, no, it would be administrative uh with city attorney and city manager, I'm sure, and HR. >> So, you mentioned uh you mentioned earlier uh that uh you would involve the city manager in some discussions or uh general orders such as beards. U how often are you meeting with the city manager to discuss police department uh internal operations? I talk to my city manager uh uh probably unless he's out or I'm out almost every day during the week, work week. >> Okay. But how about specifically to discuss internal policing? >> He we we sit there and in the mornings many times he comes over and and we're talking about just community events, everything. So it's it's a it's somewhat of a regular. So these are like informal discussions. They're not like they're not like planned meetings or anything. >> I'm sorry. Yes. >> Okay. Do you have uh do you have planned meetings where you're specifically discussing police operations? >> Objection form. >> I have called him and requested a meeting. Yes. >> Okay. How often does that happen? >> Uh not very often. >> You say a couple of times a year, once a quarter. >> Oh, it's it's it's more than that. uh if it's anything high-profile or something that might affect the city or city management uh or the the department, then I'm calling him. So, it could be uh sometimes it could be a couple times a week, sometimes it could be once a month. It just depends, but I I stay in touch with my city manager on a regular basis. >> And just to clarify too, uh the city manager uh isn't involved in any charging decisions. No, he's not. >> Okay. >> So, who makes the final decision of whether officers should pursue criminal charges? >> The way that that works is the officers will do that's you want the district attorney is the final decision. The reports go to C to the detectives. The detectives will review the reports. If they believe there's an offense that may have occurred that the officers didn't realize, then they will forward on up to the district attorney uh talk with them and then the district attorney makes the final decision. >> So the district attorney uh or sorry the detectives can go straight to the DA themselves. >> Absolutely. >> Okay. And so they don't have to notify like your lieutenant or anybody? >> No. >> Okay. But in this pro is specific to the plaintiffs though, uh your lieutenant and you were involved in that process. >> Yes, we were. >> Okay. So, the first time you learned of both incidents, is it correct that it was uh the Monday after February 4th? >> Formally, yes. >> Okay. >> Informally, I may have received a phone call from the lieutenant briefing me. I don't recall exactly. >> Do you know? Uh, so the first incident was at Miss Treble's apartment on February 4th. >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, what information were you provided on February 4th about that incident? >> I was just it would been I don't remember the specific briefing, but I do remember that I was told of the incident and it would just been a very cursory type thing. uh initially uh from the lieutenant that was been a cursory type thing. >> Okay. Uh did you understand uh that Brandon White was there? >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh and speak of Brandon White um then when did the signs uh go up in the employee parking lot at the Livingston Police Department? I I don't remember the specific date. I know why. [clears throat] >> Okay. Uh who made the decision to post those signs? >> I did. >> Okay. Did you have to get approval? >> No. >> Okay. And the signs uh established that the employee parking lot, the police department, was a restricted area? >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh and was that a result of Brandon White uh filming in that area? >> Not filming, but coming into that area. >> Okay. And so if another officer had testified it was because of Brandon White back there filming, you wouldn't know where that came from. >> No, that was my decision. That was not I didn't discuss that with the officers. >> Okay. But you knew it was uh it had to do with Brandon White. >> Yes. >> And that was prior to February 4th, 2022. >> I'm not sure. >> [snorts] >> Had you ever uh reviewed the body worn camera footage uh from these incidents? >> I've seen uh since that I I've seen some of it. Yes. >> Okay. But not in its entirety. >> No. >> Okay. [snorts] What discussions did you have with Detective Barker concerning his affidavit before it was submitted to the judge? >> I don't remember any discussions with Detective Barker. >> Okay. >> And to clarify the uh what information did you provide to the district attorney during that uh Monday morning meeting? the two incident reports that I received, the one from uh Miss Trimble and then the incident from uh Officer Simmons. >> Okay. And who was the first one to propose pursuing the charge of a false report to induce emergency response? >> That was the district attorney. >> Okay. Uh did you provide any input on that? >> No. Uh the way it works, you just present the reports, they read them. Um they may ask you a couple of questions and then they will tell you what they will accept and what to charge. >> But uh so normally the detectives would submit the incident reports to the to the district attorney's office, right? >> Yes. Normally >> but in this instance you had a you had a meeting with that the district attorney in person. >> Yes, sir. >> Did you bring the incident reports with you? >> Yes, I did. >> Okay. And you discussed the incident reports? >> Yes. Okay. And did you discuss uh any concerns with uh increased presence of individuals who film police? >> No, I don't recall that. Are >> you asking exactly? >> Yeah. Did you during that meeting was there a discussion specific? You know what a first amendment auditor is? >> Yes. >> Was there a discussion about uh interacting with your police interacting with first amendment auditors more frequently? No. >> Okay. Was there a discussion with uh dealing with u you and the city of Corgan and I guess other localities dealing with Brandon White? >> Um I don't remember specifically. Brandon White was never an issue. The filming was never an issue with our department. He had done it often and we never had problems. Had you ever during the meeting, had you ever heard of uh prior to the meeting with the DA, >> had you ever heard of the uh the false report to induce emergency response charge? >> False report? Yes, I I can say that's on a regular basis. I really um specifically I guess I should answer no. >> Okay. Uh, do you know what swatting is? >> I've heard of it. Yes. >> Okay. What is your understanding of SWAT? >> It's where people create uh uh false calls to a department uh to have SWAT teams respond to another individual's resident uh SWAT teams traditionally. >> Okay. And and that can result in bodily injury or death. >> Yes. >> Okay. Had you ever had to deal with swatting? >> Uh not that I recall. >> Okay. uh when the district attorney proposed uh filing those charges for false report to induce emergency response, did you uh take a look at the elements of that charge? >> No, I don't do that. >> Okay. So, you didn't make any independent evaluation of whether that was a valid charge or not? >> No. >> Okay. Did you require your detectives to do that? [snorts] The instructions were uh to the lieutenant, turn this over to the detectives, have them get with the district attorney and work this all out. That's how it happens. >> Okay. You didn't direct the detectives to actually file the charges. >> I told them to get with the district attorney. The I told the lieutenant I'm sorry. I talked to the lieutenant and the lieutenant talks to the detective. >> Okay. Are you What do you do to prepare for your deposition today? >> In what manner? Just uh briefing myself on the the incident. >> Did you review anything? >> Uh I would have reviewed the Yes, I have reviewed the reports. Did you speak to any of your uh officers? >> Uh as far as testimony, no. >> How about concerning plants? >> What do you mean? Uh >> did I speak to the officers concerning Brandon White and Matt? >> This week, did you have any discussions with your police officers concerning the plaintiffs? >> Maybe in passing, but no. No formal, no real uh discussions. No. >> Okay. What kind of Who who did you talk to? >> Well, like yesterday when I was leaving, I saw Detective Barker and um well, I guess it was Detective Barker and as we're just passing in the hall and I was actually leaving out the back door. >> Okay. What was that discussion? >> Just how did things go? And >> what did he tell you? It went good. >> Did you have any written communications with any officers concerning plaintiffs or this lawsuit? >> No, sir. I don't >> Did you um do you talk uh Okay. So, it was just Detective Barker. Anybody else? >> No, I I saw uh Sergeant Bogy, but he was in the report room and I never discussed anything with him. >> Okay. Uh, Detective Middleton uh testified yesterday uh that uh you not your lieutenant but you specifically instructed him on uh what to charge the plaintiffs in this case. Do you recall that? >> Uh objection form. >> No, I don't. Uh you have a small police department respectively, right? >> Yes sir. >> Okay. Uh how many in 2022, February 2022, how many officers would you have on the dayshift for example? I'm trying to um there could be on duty during that day uh about [snorts] count detectives about 12 >> and then uh that the areas that you operate in are they open >> like if there were discussions everybody could be involved? >> No. Well, we have closed off areas like administration has a suite that's closed off. >> Okay. So, uh when you return from uh the meeting with the DA, uh do you know if you directed Middleton specifically uh what charges to pursue against plaintiffs? >> No, I don't. >> Okay. Did you provide any or did you direct did you provide or direct any training uh concerning uh how officers should respond to individuals uh filming them? >> Again, that would have been a I would have discussed with the lieutenant to make sure, you know, to to be mindful of their first amendment rights, but no formal training that I can recall. >> [snorts] >> So the uh the first incident you think you informally learned on February 4th. What about the second incident? >> That would have more than likely been uh Monday. >> Okay. What information was provided to you about that incident? It would have been a I don't recall the exact wording, but the lieutenant would have uh briefed me on the incident. Uh from that, I pulled the officer's reports and I read the reports. >> Okay. But you didn't watch the body uh the body warrant camera footage or the dash camera footage? >> No, sir. I didn't. >> Did you speak to officers Simmons or Reyes? >> Not at that time. No, sir. Uh who made the decision to pursue the engaging in organized criminal activity charges? >> The district attorney. >> Okay. Uh but you would have had discretion uh in that process to not pursue the charges. >> Yes. >> Okay. Did you uh look at what the necessary elements were concerning engaging in organized criminal activity? >> No, sir. Did you uh discuss with Detective Middleton his uh arrest warrant affidavit before you submitted it to a judge? >> No sir, I didn't. [snorts] >> Did you uh have an opportunity to review the affidavit before it was submitted to a judge? >> No. How long did the meeting with the district attorney last? >> Um maybe 30 minutes maybe uh give or take. >> Did you provide the district attorney with the body camera footage? >> No sir, I didn't. So other than the incident reports, what information was provided to the district attorney about each pliff? >> Just the incident reports. Uh >> that's all that he was provided from the >> Okay. Why was there an urgency to obtain arrest warrants against the plaintiffs? >> The urgency was again it uh the incident seemed to be escalating to a point to where I was fearful that there was about to be uh it was becoming danger to the officers or the public. That was my whole concern. That's the only reason that the chief of police I called the district attorney. >> How long have you been a licensed peace officer? >> Since I think March of 1990. >> Okay. And uh you understand that uh police reports aren't always uh accurate. >> Objection form. I don't know what you're Are you implying that they're >> What What do you >> Are police [snorts] reports accurate 100% of the time? >> Objection. >> 100%. No. >> Okay. Um and there's actually your department doesn't have any review process concerning the accuracy of police reports, does it? >> Objection. >> We do. >> Okay. What is that process? >> Uh the spot checking. The lieutenant will actually review the body cam footage of the individual's incidents, whether it's traffic or actually a a offense, and then he will actually look at the reports and go over the reports >> for every case. >> No, he just spot checks uh random random cases. >> What's the percentage? >> Oh, I I >> don't know. Okay. I I know he's he does it on a regular basis because he offices right next to me and I hear him I hear the videos playing constantly. >> Okay. Um is this pursuant to written policy or verbal instruction you gave the lieutenant? >> Well, it's actually some of it is is from Tik uh due to racial profiling uh requirements that we have to do. Uh there has to be spot checks on that and then uh others is just our in-house uh checks and balances. >> So are you instructing the lieutenant to review a certain percentage of uh these police reports for accuracy? >> Uh I don't tell him a certain percentage. No, >> but you but you did tell him to to do it. >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Do you know if the lieutenant had spot checked uh the police reports concerning plaintiffs? I know the lieutenant uh Marty Drake at the time. I do know that he he was very familiar with the case. I do know that. >> But do you know >> involved? >> Okay. Do do you know if the lieutenant reviewed the accuracy of the incident reports concerning plaintiffs? >> No, sir. I don't. Okay. prior to February 4, 2022, uh, had you had any discussions with city manager or city council concerning First Amendment auditors? >> I'm sure I would have discussed it with my uh, city manager. Absolutely not with council. But yes, again, I talked to him regularly, so I'm positive. Any specific conversations? I don't know. But I know I would have. >> Okay. So, uh, for your you had at least some concern with First Amendment auditors prior to February 2022 that would have resulted in that discussion with the city manager. The concern was the the YouTube that they were doing with the officers and anything that might so if he sees that type event, this is what's going on. So it's not really a concern. It's more of informative type thing that if you see us on Facebook or whatever these social media sites, this is this is what's happening. >> Okay. So, you became aware prior to February 4, 2022, uh, that your officer's uh, interactions with members of the public uh, were being recorded and posted onto social media? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Had you observed those videos prior to February 4, 2022? >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. And it you at least wanted to bring the awareness of those videos to the attention of the city manager >> of their actions. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> What guidance or instruction did you provide to your police officers in the event they found themselves in a similar situation? >> Uh just to remember uh that just faming the officers alone is not a violation of the law. You know, it's a first amendment rights. >> Okay. So you understood then that uh in February 2022 individuals had a first amendment right to film police. >> Yes. >> Is uh um is uh following a police vehicle around a crime? >> No. >> How about uh openly carrying a firearm? >> No. So, I know we've talked a lot about uh Brandon White. Were you aware of any of the other plaintiffs prior to February 4, 2022? >> I've probably known Melanie 15 plus years. I've known her a long time, a lot longer than Brandon. The other two individuals, no, I've never met them. >> Were you aware that Melanie had a film police interactions? Yes. Sometimes she was with Brandon. Yes. >> Okay. So, you knew that prior to February 4, 2022? >> Yes. >> Okay. Did you ever know uh Brandon White or Melanie Treble uh to be violent towards police officers? >> Nope. Had you ever discussed uh [snorts] plaintiffs uh at least Melanie and Brandon White, had you ever discussed them uh with the Livingston uh police staff? >> Um well, they would come to the office. So, yes, Brandon and Melanie were at the office quite a bit in the lobby and uh so the staff all knew what was going on. Uh specific conversations, I don't know. I mean, but it was in open public. They could see us. >> Prior to February 4, 2022, did you have concerns with uh uh Brandon White's conduct with going to the police department or filming police? >> Oh, absolutely not. It was never a problem. He didn't cause a problem. >> Okay. So what was the uh so then what was the purpose of the uh the signs then? >> The purpose of the signs the reason I and actually uh believe Brandon White has a recording of this or he appeared to be recording me but the purpose of the signs was in our back parking lot. If you see it you will see that there's just a narrow road and you got the police cars that are steadily coming in and out. The the other major issue is that's where we process our prisoners and whether they're juveniles or adults, the officers are unloading those individuals in the parking lot and walking them up to our back door literally to process them. Um, that's that's a concern. As well as we have a trustee that actually washes our cars and does all that. I can't have civilians wandering amongst all that. It has to be a restricted area because of those those problems or those those things that we do the business we conduct. >> Okay. So, and to clarify, uh that area was never officially designated as a restricted area. >> It it had signs that said police vehicles only and that type thing, but nothing. It was not specific enough for >> Okay. >> It needed to be more specific. And so, uh, your your whole time with the Livingston Police Department, there were no issues back there until you became a aware of Brandon White's presence back there >> of people of citizens coming into the back parking lot. Uh, no, there's almost no problems with that at all the whole time I was there. So, other than just informally, I guess, talking to your officers, was there any uh specific guidance or directive for how they're supposed to respond when being filmed? >> Uh, no, sir. >> When you sent out the uh press release, uh where how was it published? We uh we uh would have sent it to our lo there's a local blogger uh kind of he's not an official but he he he does a lot of news reporting like accidents and stuff like that. I sent it to him and I think we posted it on Facebook although I did try to look and I couldn't find it the other day but I thought I did. >> Okay. Do you still have the email from when you shared the press release with that blogger? Uh, it would have again I would have sent it to my lieutenant and he would have forwarded on to it's Willie Openshaw P County today. >> Can you spell his last name? >> O P E N S H A W just like it sounds. >> Okay. Was there any other Was there uh any substance in the email u to that individual? >> Um I I don't know. Did you have to discuss that uh press release uh after it was published with the city manager at all? >> No. >> Would were you ever questioned about it from the city manager or city council? >> No. >> Were you concerned at all about how the press release might affect future prosecution? >> No. >> Did you make any other public statements about uh plaintiffs? >> Not that I remember. No. >> Is verbally challenging officers uh uh legal interpretations protected first amendment activity? >> Yes. >> Were you aware that officers released plaintiffs from both incidents after Well, let me describe. Were you aware that officers released plaintiffs from both incidents? >> Yes. >> Did you consider whether pursuing charges might chill protected first amendment activities? >> I'm sorry. >> Were you Did you consider whether pursuing charges against plaintiffs might chill protected first amendment activities? >> Objection form. >> I don't think it would affect First Amendment at all. >> Okay. So, arresting somebody for felony offenses. You don't know if that might give pause as to whether or not they'll continue filming police officers >> objection form? >> No, it doesn't. >> Was the decision to pursue charges motivated Well, let me back up. Did do you consider the plaintiffs to be first amendment auditors? >> Well, I knew Brandon and Melanie. I don't know the other two. >> Okay. But at least two of them you identified as First Amendment auditors. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. What's your definition of a first amendment auditor? >> Objection. >> Uh just individuals that go to mainly to police departments, but they do go to other uh uh government entities and they just uh I don't know. They just film the incidents that that are occurring with the office. Was the decision to pursue charges motivated in any part by plaintiffs uh being first amendment auditors? >> No, sir. >> Was the decision influenced by plaintiff's uh YouTube channels or prior activity? >> No. >> Did you consider whether pursuing felony charges might deter others from filming police? >> No. Because if the district attorney would have said no, uh there wouldn't have been any charges. The district attorney is the one that directed these charges. >> Have you ever uh pursued similar charges against individuals who are not filming? >> Engaging and Yes, there's been other charges of engaging. >> How about engaging in organized criminal activity for retaliation? >> Yes. Yes, there has been. >> Okay. What circumstance was that? >> I I don't know. I know I I I'll be honest. during the the uh interrogatories and stuff like that. I I looked and uh >> well, I know there was some prior testimony about a uh organized criminal activity concerning a theft ring, I guess, a ATV theft ring. Does that sound familiar? >> Uh not off top of my head. >> Okay. But sitting here today, you can't uh recall another time uh you pursued charges of uh engaging in organized criminal activity with the underlying offense being a retaliation. >> Can I clarify that? Are you are you asking me >> personally or as the chief my department >> uh department for the department? Um, I don't know specifically uh with my department. Are you aware that probable cause requires individualized uh uh suspicion for each uh for each individual? >> Yes. >> Other than the TCL uh like police academy training uh what training? Well, let me ask it this way. What training uh does the city provide to its officers concerning the constitutional limitations to arrests? >> I don't know of any formal training off the top of my head. >> Okay. Other than uh you mentioned the spa checking with the lieutenant for like police reports, >> uh what review process exists to ensure arrest warrants are supported by probable cause? >> When the when the lieutenant spot checks a report, he looks at the whole report. Those those affidavits are scanned into the report as well. >> Okay. So, is he reviewing those affidavits before it's presented to a judge? >> No, sir. So his review only comes after it's presented to a judge. >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. So there's actually not a review process of the arrest warrants before they go to the judge. >> Yeah. Yes, you're correct. Yes. >> What training uh does the Living Simp Police Department provide to its officers concerning the drafting of arrest uh affidavit? When we appoint a uh or u promote someone to detective, they are basically put in type of an FTO type program to where they're working with the other detectives and the other detectives will train them on how to do that. >> Is that a FTO program that's uh internally developed? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Is that uh something that you put together? >> Uh yes. Well, it I can't say I don't remember how it started. It's just been that way. >> Okay. So, it's just basically a left seat, right seat situation or like mentorship coaching? >> Yes. Yes. >> Is there a formal uh guide or process for the FTO program or is it just hey come and watch me? >> Uh the formality of course uh a lot of times the detectives will train with the judges. I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. They will, you know, a lot of our judges are attorneys and like our magistrate now as an an attorney and they will get direction from her as well on how to draft these complaints. >> Is there some kind of like checklist or anything to go through? >> No. Okay. Prior to someone being uh uh in a position to draft arrest warrant affidavits, uh are they evaluated? >> The officers? >> Yes. >> Yes, they're all evaluated. >> Okay. Uh spec they're evaluated specifically on drafting affidavits. >> Uh no, no. >> You're thinking evaluation like quarterly, annually? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Okay. But specific only certain officers in the department are drafting affidavit, correct? Yes. >> And that's the detectives. >> Yes. >> Okay. So, are these detectives uh evaluated on the proper way of drafting affidavits? If I'm having a problem with a detective, uh our magistrate will call me and tell me their affidavit are not correct. I tell the lieutenant or even the magistrate will call the the lieutenant and says, "Okay, they need to start working on their affidavits." Uh, I guess that's what you're asking. I don't I don't know. >> Uh, let me circle back. Uh, had you had any issues uh from any magistrates or anybody concerning uh how Middleton has drafted affidavit? >> Uh, no, sir. No. >> Okay. How about Barker? >> No. >> Okay. Uh so what I'm so back to what I was asking uh before an individual is determined to be a detective right because detectives are the ones that draft affidavits. >> Yes. >> So before they are u given that ability to draft affidavit is there some kind of evaluation process to make sure the detectives know how to properly draft affidavit? >> No. >> Okay. >> So let me ask it this way. So like you know uh officers have to qualify on their firearm every what 6 months every year. >> Yes. >> Okay. And you don't just hand a police officer a firearm and say all right now you got a firearm. Right. There's a there's a there's a evaluation process that they know how to use it, how to fire it. Right. >> Yes. >> Does something similar exist specific to arrest affidavit? >> Yes. the the detective that's training him will review his his affidavit. >> Okay. Is this something that the detective just uh doing the training will do on their own or is there some kind of formal policy or process that exists? >> Uh I don't know about formal. It is definitely our practice though. It always has been. >> Okay. So ultimately it depends on the detectives uh coaching and training of that individual. >> Yes sir. >> Okay. >> Sorry. >> Yeah. I didn't mean to make it confusing. Yeah. >> What uh training does Livingston uh police what training does the city of Livingston uh provide to officers concerning Texas identification laws? >> Nothing specific. Okay. Are you familiar with the Texas Penal Code 38.02? >> Yes. >> Okay. Do you understand when does that individual have to identify themselves? >> I know once they've been arrested, they have to give their name, date of birth, and residence. Uh if they're being detained, then they're uh if they give false information, then they've committed an offense. Also on down in the statute, it also addresses uh when you're stopped on traffic violations that you have to present your your driver's license to the officer. >> And that traffic violation, that's a new change as of 2023, correct? >> I believe so. Yes, sir. >> Okay. That didn't exist in 2022. >> If you don't know, that's fine. >> I'm not sure. >> Okay. Uh so when an individual is just detained, is there a requirement that they have to identify themselves? >> No, sir. Are you aware of whether uh the department has arrested previously arrested individuals for filming police? >> No, they have not. Why uh back on the press release, why did you decide to do a press release? Our department was just getting uh bombarded with phone calls from all over the nation uh of other auditors uh threatening the department, the officers uh just harassment and even my dispatch. And so at that point, I felt it was more appropriate as the chief of police that I put the the uh press release out other than one of the detectives or something which I traditionally do. That's why I wear a uniform. Most chiefs, my prior chiefs never did that. I believe that as the chief of police, I should put myself out there first. Okay. Uh, did you review any of the body warrant camera footage prior to releasing that press release? >> I don't know. Okay. Did you direct any policy changes after these incidents? >> I've I've had many polic policy changes not not relating to this, but I've had many policy changes. Yes. >> Okay. But nothing specific uh that transpired out of these incidents? >> No, sir. >> Okay. Did you uh did you ever uh order or conduct the review uh of the officer's conduct of these incidents? >> No. Okay. Do you believe the department needs specific policies uh for handling uh encounters with individuals who film police? >> No. >> Do you believe that your officers require any additional training uh concerning individuals who film police? >> No, sir. Do you have any concerns that officers might uh violate the rights of individuals who film police in future encounters? >> No, I don't. >> Have you discussed these incidents with a city manager or city council? >> The city manager? Yes. Okay. >> Not council. >> Okay. Was that a discussion with city manager to to uh just provide a summary or was it to to evaluate whether any changes might be needed? >> No, it's it's strictly a summary just just informative. >> Okay. Did the city manager direct you to do anything as a result of that discussion? >> No, he did not. >> You doing good so far? Oh, >> I'm good. You mentioned the uh you mentioned that you have some kind of uh third party company that creates the policies or drafts the policies for the police department. Do you recall that? >> Yes, I did. >> Okay. Um who approves that contract? >> City management. >> Okay. So that didn't concern you or involve you? >> What do you >> objection form? >> Okay. I I'm the one that I mean I signed the bill but ultimately city manager. >> Okay. So you said hey city say manager we found this company to do x y and z. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> What's the requirement for uh for your officers to review those policies? we have what's called they're mandated uh while they're in their FTO when we first hire them they have to go through each individual policy and they have to acknowledge each policy then we have what is called uh daily training bulletins which are periodically put out by the lieutenant and then the sergeant will oversee that and they take uh just it's kind of a cursory little test of uh multiple choice test on each individual policy where they're given scenarios and how does this policy apply to that? >> Okay. Are there any daily bulletins uh that were provided concerning uh first amendment auditors? >> No. >> Okay. How about the right to open carry firearms? >> I don't remember any of that. >> Okay. [snorts] Who determines uh what the daily bulletins are going to be? >> Lexi probably sends them to us randomly and then we the lieutenant sends them out. >> Okay. So that's not something that's internally developed then? >> No. >> Okay. >> What mechanisms exist to ensure that the officers are following policies? >> The sergeants uh we have periodic reviews on the individual's officer's conduct. The the sergeants will uh then report to the lieutenant and that's how kind of our balances checks and balances. Have you had any uh issues with officers failing to follow policies? >> Yes. >> Okay. Any of the defendants? >> Um there was a incident a number of years ago with uh Scott Pasy. >> That was the two 2012 one. >> Yes. >> Anything more recent? >> Um not that I recall. No, sir. >> Okay. What consequences exist for officers who violate department policies? >> Everything uh from verbal warnings all the way to termination. >> Okay. And that's within uh your lieutenant's discretion. >> No, he only recommends uh what disciplinary action then it comes to me. >> Okay. So, it's your discretion. >> Yes. >> Okay. I think I asked about auditors uh as part of your discussion with the city manager. Uh so prior to February 4, 2022, had you had uh discussions with the city manager uh specifically concerning Brandon White? >> Yes. Uh I'm sure I did again because he was kind of a regular fixture around there. So I know I would have told him that, hey, this is going on. >> Okay. What uh guidance or direction was the city manager giving you concerning Brandon White? He doesn't. He didn't. Okay. Why were the uh plaintiff's phones seized? I would uh I would have to refer that to my uh detectives, but traditionally um I've always been taught that we seize everything. We can always give it back, but we need to take everything that we that might pertain to a case until we consult with a district attorney and then decide what we they want or don't want. Is >> there any uh was there ever any search warrant obtained for the phones? Uh, not to my knowledge. Okay. >> Specific to these incidents. Uh, what discussions did you have with the city manager? um just briefed him on the individuals and what had occurred and that uh we were at the uh guidance of the district attorney. We were pursuing charges. >> Okay. Did city manager give you any direction or guidance? >> No, sir. >> Okay. Did you uh present anything concerning these incidents with city council? >> No. Were you aware that the uh charges in this case were dismissed? >> Later? Yes. >> Okay. Did you investigate why the charges were dismissed? [snorts] >> No. >> Okay. Did you review any officer conduct after the dismissal? >> No, sir. >> What responsibility, if any, do you believe the department bears for what happened to the plaintiffs? I don't know if any we were acting at the guidance of the district attorney >> and the district attorney had the information that you provided to him. Correct. >> The offense reports. Yes. >> Okay. And then also a 30-minute discussion. >> Give or take. It could have been a little longer. Those were >> and this is without you or without you talking to anybody that was actually present at those incidents. subjection for >> Were there any uh complaints uh made against the officers as a result of these incidents? >> Hundreds that were again that were so belligerent and nothing I don't recall anything formal. Nothing formal came to me. Uh but as far as complaints, hundreds if not thousands. >> Were they looked into? >> Most of them were just uh cursing and threatening and then dial tones. >> Okay. So none of were any of them looked into though. Was there any complaint looked into? >> Nothing that come to me. >> Okay. Uh who would have had final discretion on those uh informal complaints? It would have either been the sergeant or the lieutenant. >> Okay. Are were these complaints if a sergeant or lieutenant looked into them, would they be logged anywhere? >> Uh, it depends. If they were informal, it would have just been all verbal. Uh, if it was formal, then it would have went into their personnel. >> Okay. So, informal complaints aren't tracked. >> No. Okay. I I guess I understand at the time um detectives were not required to wear a body warning camera. >> No. >> Okay. Was that your decision? >> Well, at that time we probably had about three or four body cam cameras that actually worked. Uh so uh it was just just out of lack of of the total equipment we've since swapped but >> Okay. So it was just based on lack of resources not any specific uh determination. >> Yeah. >> At some point you at least viewed uh some body warning camera footage of these incidents, right? >> Yes, sir. Did you identify yourself any discrepancies between what was written in the incident reports and the affidavits and the body warning camera? >> No sir. Does anyone review your decisions regarding criminal investigations? >> District Attorney. >> Okay. But no one within the city. >> No. >> Okay. So, not the city manager. >> Uh what? Any investigation I do? No. No. Okay. No. [snorts] >> You're talking about criminal. criminal investigations. >> Okay. Yes. No. >> Has the city ever expressed any disagreement with how these incidents were handled? >> No, sir. >> Has the city implemented any changes to prevent similar incidents? >> No, sir. >> Has the city outside of the police department uh conducted any independent investigation into the incidents? Not to my knowledge. >> What position does the city take regarding the propriety of the charges? >> I don't know that they have a position. Um, like I say, the the the only uh thing is we followed our practice as we always would with any other criminal case. There wasn't really a position on anything. >> What action did the city take upon learning uh the charges were dismissed? None. >> Okay. Does the city stand by the uh police department's decisions in this matter? >> I can't speak for the city manager, but >> Well, you're the city rep, >> right? >> I can say that I support what was done on this [clears throat] this case. Yes. >> Okay. So, you as the police chief, you stand by the decisions of how the case was handled. >> Yes. [snorts] >> Right. Thank you for your time. I will reserve all further questions. >> I've got a few follow-ups, Chief. Um, I think earlier you testified that there were some complaints against the officers uh surrounding the incident with the plaintiffs and you said I think there were hundreds if not thousands of complaints. I want you to give a little bit more context to that and um what kind of what types of complaints were these? I mean, was it individuals coming up to the office and filling out something, giving their name and phone number and stuff, or like what were the complaints? >> The these uh were just uh complaints about they were all over the telephone. Uh from all over the nation there, I don't recall any local complaints. Uh but they concerned don't your officers know 3802 you need to train the officers why aren't you training your officers better that time complaint and then seriously it would just go into uh very explicit bad language and then even to the threats that they were coming with guns to take [clears throat] at one point coming with guns to take over the police department. And how um did this affect dispatch in the police department's telephone lines? >> Oh my gosh. Yes. I mean, we've we've [snorts] got 28 lines and they couldn't even uh still didn't have enough personnel to answer all of them uh all the lines. We only run one dispatcher. We actually brought had to bring in other personnel to help with the the phone calls cuz we still have a job to do in the city of Livingston and there are folks calling for assistance and our phone lines were just completely shut down almost. >> And these complaints that related to the February 4th incident with plaintiffs, you already knew the facts and situation regarding those incidents. >> Objection form. >> Yes. >> All right. Um, you had reviewed those reports already. Yes. >> Okay. Um, and in reviewing those reports, um, did you believe that, uh, there needed to be further investigation then into any of these telephone calls that came into the city? >> No. >> Okay. As far as continuing education for the your police department, that's T-Cold required. Does the city of Livingston actually or the the police department um does the police department provide that training or do they contract that out with a third party or allow the officers to go to a third party? How does that work? >> We allow the officers to go to a third party. uh sometimes we will bring in a third party for internal training but most of it's contracted or [snorts] they're sent to other other entities for the training. >> So the department's not providing um the specific like curriculum and things like that for the continuing TCO training. >> No. >> Okay. Early on, uh, Mr. Greyel was asking you about policies and uh the term create was used a lot in response to some questions and I couldn't tell if your intent was that you create policy in that you adopt it and therefore create the policy of the PD or if you meant create as in sometimes you draft policy that is uh adopted by city council. So can you explain um how the policies of the police department come about? >> Uh almost all with the exception of like the beard. Uh but um 99.99% come through Lexipo. They're renting written by other entities based off of case law, federal law, best practices. Um, and then it's they send them to me, I look at them, then they either go to the city attorney, city management, they look at them, then they're presented to council. >> Okay. So, even on the beards, did you um adopt that policy or did it have to still get approved by city council before it became policy? >> It had to be approved by council. Okay. >> Before it came policy. Mr. Greyel asked you about the specific charges in this case um involving the plaintiffs. Since you have been chief of police, have you ever had an incident where one of your police officers felt that they were being uh stalked or harassed while on duty? >> No. >> Okay. Um, so there's never been an incident report that was presented to you that had similar facts as those relating to the plaintiffs in this case? >> No. >> And just so we're clear, the prior to the February 4th incident, had um Mr. White, the pliff in this case, one of the plaintiffs in this case, had he videotaped interactions with you as chief? >> Yes. >> Okay. Do you know whether or not he had videotaped uh interactions with your other officers? >> Yes. >> And since the February 4th incident, has he videotaped interactions with you? >> Yes. >> Okay. And say I say videotape, I guess that's kind of an old school word. Uh maybe even just recorded with a cell phone. um interactions with you uh since the filing of this lawsuit? >> Yes. >> And so did Mr. Greyel ask you some questions about signs for authorized personnel only regarding the um parking lot at the [clears throat] police department? And so just so we're clear, um was the issue related to uh Mr. White being at the parking lot in the parking lot or was the issue that he was in the parking lot uh videotaping um in police car or into police cars or videotaping police activity? It was strictly his presence in the in the parking lot that was causing the disrupt disruption and had to put the signs up. Had nothing to do with the filming. Okay. >> I pass the witness. >> You mentioned um your officers are uh they're evaluated I guess on it. I I said quarterly or annually. What what is the actual process? I'm sorry. Ours is uh annually. They everyone in the department gets an annual evaluation. Now, when they're on a FTO, they get a daily evaluation. Um then obviously sometimes uh if we think an officer needs additional training, they may be put uh on a much shorter evaluation. >> Okay. So, is it internally decided whether an officer needs additional training? >> Yes, sir. >> Okay. Okay. And then if additional training is needed, uh who decides what that training is? >> The lieutenant. >> Okay. And then that would be something that uh would be developed internally or would you all go to a third party for that? >> Third party. >> Okay. But you all would you or the lieutenant would have the discretion as to what exactly needed to be trained? >> Yes. >> Okay. Uh and then uh one more question about the uh press release. The very last sentence states, and I think it might be on the second page, states that uh something to the effect, it might not be the last sentence, it's in there somewhere, that the matter is being further investigated. >> Yes. >> Okay. What investig And you drafted this on February 11th, correct? >> Yes. >> What further investigation occurred? >> That I I couldn't tell you. That is just kind of a standard closing to most of our our statements, >> our press releases, especially early on. So would it surprise you then that Barker and Middleton testified that once they secured the arrest warrants, their investigation had uh concluded? >> No, it would surprise me. >> Okay. So in that they would have gotten those warrants uh prior to February 11, 2022. >> Um >> I'll represent to you they did. >> Okay. Yes. >> Okay. So as far as you know, there was no other investigation in this matter. Um >> your objection for >> not by the police department. >> Okay. All right. I pass reserve balance not >> right it is 11:30 a.m.